Iconoclast Show full post »
JordyO
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Originally posted by Iconoclast:
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Originally posted by JordyO:
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
after reading your posts it seems clear that you have your opinion on the subject based on false information. Allow me to explain...

To mod a system, you need a mod chip.

Now, you are implying that it takes some sort of extreme modification to the system to mod one... and no. A mod chip is just that. A chip that you put into the console. And where your logic goes awry is because you assumed the they are illegal and are not intended to be used with the systems- wrong! The manufacturers put in empty slots just for mod chips. Because, if they didn't, boom! anti-trust case! So there goes half of your arguement.

The other half-- that there is no legal reason or use of a mod chip. Just like with any modification of anything (like your car, that you've modded, or your computer, that you're modded), the vast majority are legal. As has been clearly showed in this post already, consoles are no exception.

One of the best things to come from comsole modding is the XBMC, a program that has been posted on this forum before, and one that some here probably use (I do). XBMC website and download

There is one illegal way to use modding, and that is the one you are ignorantly fixated on. Face it, not only is that not the only way to use a mod chip, but there are a great many perfectly legal uses of console mods.

A blanket perm-ban on all of them for the illegal actions of the few is just wrong. Period. If there was a way to just ban those who are illegally playing games online, then I'd be all for it. But there isn't. And Microsoft's action is not an acceptible solution.
Aaaah here we go with you thinking you're smarter than everyone again.

I love when you get to this part because I get to make you look like a moron again

If you think MS has included a specific slot just for a mod chip then you're clearly dillusional. Have you ever looked at the wiring diagram for a chip? Have you seen the number of jumper wires it takes? It's not as simple as popping a chip in to a slot.

Even implying that MS must include a slot for a mod chip or they face anti-trust charges just proves you have *NO* clue what you're talking about.

I'll admit that I don't know the full details of anti-trust (although some lawyers in this thread will point me in the right direction if I'm wrong) but I don't see how a company is required to make it so you can modify an electronic device.

I don't have a mod chip slot on my fridge. I don't have one on my DVD player. I don't have one on my microwave.

I think I'm going to start an anti-trust case against Whirlpool, Toshiba and GE.

I mean, DAMNIT, I want to be able to turn my fridge to a colder temperature, watch DVDs at 1.375x playback (what's this 2x garbge?!) and change the settings on my "Popcorn" button with the microwave to be 2:50 instead of the 2:30 that it is now!!

I'm sorry but you are the one who is being ignorant if you honestly believe that the majority of users who have a modded Xbox do it so they can run legal apps such as XBMC.

Also, to further crush that argument, NOTHING is preventing people from continuing to use XBMC on their Xbox after its been modded. You just can't play on Live.

So your system is still workable and still does what you wanted it to (XBMC) you just lose the ability to play on Live. (which you knew about full-well before you popped that chip in to it's little "insert mod-chip here" slot )

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You aren't as smart as you think you are and I'm not as dumb as you think I am.

I just don't make it my lifes goal to come on to a car audio forum and try to convince people that I'm a vast tomb of knowledge in areas I know SFA about.

The funny part is... you think someone would get a hint when EVERY other member of this board is saying you're wrong (including a lawyer!) but I guess your "not quite graduated from community college" education has you believing that you know everything because you read a few books and pulled some excerpts out of context.

OH, did you also not get a hint when NO ONE is filing anti-trust charges against MS? People love to sue MS so I'm thinking someone who is far more well-versed in the subject would have jumped all over this because the court fees for this case alone would probably set someone up for life.. and you know how much lawyers love money. (no offence Andy!)
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JordyO
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Originally posted by Broken Silence - Johnny:
If I put a chip on my truck, and the dealer finds it, they would tell me to get lost...Do I complain? Nope...
That's just because your truck doesn't have a special "insert mod chip here" slot.

Didn't you hear about the big law suit against Chevy for not having it?

Expect it in the new '11 models
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Andy Jones
^No offense at all. I do love money. Having money is MUCH better than being broke.
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JordyO
Ok... so now I'm REALLY interested in this "insert mod-chip here" slot you're talking about.

Here's a pic of both the regular and Elite boards. Please show me where this slot is

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JordyO
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Originally posted by Iconoclast:
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Originally posted by JordyO:
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
Now, you are implying that it takes some sort of extreme modification to the system to mod one... and no. A mod chip is just that. A chip that you put into the console. And where your logic goes awry is because you assumed the they are illegal and are not intended to be used with the systems- wrong! The manufacturers put in empty slots just for mod chips. Because, if they didn't, boom! anti-trust case! So there goes half of your arguement.

I'm just going to quote this here so you can't go back to edit your post and say this isn't what you meant.

You say there's an empty slot just for the mod chip. I'd like to have it located for me
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Iconoclast
As I've said before, I only know what I've been told. Apparently the people I know weren't exactly truthful about how they're installed. ohh, well. I read that all systems were like that, and I believed them... the 360 is apparently not. Maybe they lied about the rest of the consoles as well.

the elite and original 360's have different mobo's? I thought they came out at the same time, and the only difference was peripherals... I guess that's two things learned.

That obviously changes things. Before I thought it was stupid to encourage modifications on one hand, then ban without warning later. At least I no longer have that issue with their decision. So, despite being a douche about it, thanks for clearing that up. I usually try to verify things and not just believe them, but I dfefinately screwed up this time. I'll try to be more careful. I've been wrong lots before, and I'll certainly be wrong lots in the future. Every time I learn something, and I have no problem with admitting it.

But... I still don't think Microsoft's decision is "right." 1. They are still saying everyone who has modded their system, without a single exception, does it for one of two purposes; to use illegal games on their network, or to cheat (lowering the 'integrity' of their network-- which cheating does do). And 2. There is no "other" network to use. (for example: Microsoft's hardware is perfectly capable of playing any game software that you make... but it won't without modding the console. Now, you try and they ban you... from all games. This severely cuts down competition, and is highly "wrong," IMO.)

The fact is, there are many things people can do other than those two things, and people who do neither are banned. If there was a way to unban them if they restored their consoles, and/or if there were a way to isolate and ban offenders (the theifs/cheaters) only, then I would be all for it. If neither of those exist, which Microsoft says they don't, then I would be OK with it if there were another network (some alternative) to use. To the best of my knowledge, that doesn't exist, either. (Though, someone did mention that soething of the sort might exist). I doubt Microsoft would let one live long without a lawsuit to make them the monopoly again, but who knows.

And regarding modding the microwave or car... you can do anything you want to to them. Just like with the software, you would need to change the car or whatever physically (like removing a dash and fiberglassing in a HU), but you aren't banned from playing your radio or driving your car around if you do it. Businesses can't just say something like "all (race) are criminals, so they are banned from our stores." It WAS legal, but it was never "right" (IMO). Microsoft's actions may be legal, but IMO they aren't "right." They are trying to make something perfectly acceptable a "taboo." That's just wrong.

There are also several other issues. A friend of mine had a 360 that crashed. He got another one and plopped his hard drive in... some of the save games and things were there, but lots of stuf was missing. Most of the stuff he bought from "xbox live" was gone (though MS said it was still fine on his hard drive). He called up Microsoft and said that they are aware of that bug (where they sometimes aren't able to access some of the data). Although, he could spend hours and hours re-downloading it ("at no additional cost!") if he went through several steps. But if he did that, there was still no way to delete the old files, and the data would stay there forever as taken space, but basically corrupted (unusable). Or... he could pay them $100 to fix the problem back to normal (even though it is only a software update to fix the bug). (I think there may have been another option, but it's been a while, and I forgot). Mod-chips fix this bug, but then he would now be banned from online. He just left it like it was and just never got anything else from xbox live.
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HCCAfan
the reason for re-downloading the items is because how the download marries to the 360's internal id. they do this to prevent the downloads from being shared.

and like i said, its their service, its their rules. simple solution... if you want to play in live, comply to the rules set forth.

your argument about them not providing a place to play your modded box is silly. thats almost like saying gm is responsible for providing you a highway you can go as fast as you want because you bought a corvette from them, which can surpass the speed limit greatly.
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JordyO
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Originally posted by Iconoclast:
As I've said before, I only know what I've been told. Apparently the people I know weren't exactly truthful about how they're installed. ohh, well. I read that all systems were like that, and I believed them... the 360 is apparently not. Maybe they lied about the rest of the consoles as well.

the elite and original 360's have different mobo's? I thought they came out at the same time, and the only difference was peripherals... I guess that's two things learned.

Hehe... see, now we're getting down to things

First allow me to clarify a few things that you've been told.

There is no mod chip to the board of an Xbox. It's actually done to the DVD drive. It's a hack to the firmware to bypass it looking for certain parts of the boot loader (this part I'm not 100% sure on.. I know it's to the drive of the system, the "boot loader" part is an assumption on my part)

The Elite and "regular" Xbox didn't come out at the same time.

When the 360 came out the largest drive you could get for it at the time was 20GB. People thought this was nuts considering the size of drives these days plus they didn't have an HDMI port on the original version.

So... MS released an "Elite" version with 120GB HD and HDMI. There were probably other features as well but those were the 2 most significant parts. (HDMI later beame a standard feature on the 360..)

So yeah... you're right, I was a douche about it. But given your tone on the subject and how increbily wrong you were (and this isn't the first time) I felt it necessary
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Andy Jones
Did he really just type that Microsoft should provide a network for people with modded xboxes to play on?

he wants Microsoft to SPEND MONEY to allow people who are likely stealing software from them to have a place to play?


This is why abortion should be allowed until the 300th trimester.
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Broken Silence - Johnny
For what other purposes would you mod an xbox?
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JordyO
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Originally posted by Andy Jones:
Did he really just type that Microsoft should provide a network for people with modded xboxes to play on?

he wants Microsoft to SPEND MONEY to allow people who are likely stealing software from them to have a place to play?


This is why abortion should be allowed until the 300th trimester.
lol... hilarious... and sigged
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Iconoclast
Johnny, for a partial list, check that second BBC link I posted on the first page of this thread. It is worth noting that the capabilities of modded systems vary greatly between consoles. On the wii you can do such and such, on the xbox 1 such and such, etc.

I didn't say Microsoft should provide a space. I said that there should be a place. I think the fact (?) that there isn't means Microsoft opposes it, and that is a major issue I have with Microsoft's blanket ban. I'm convinced that there are many who would be willing to provide such a space... but also that Microsoft would (threaten to) sue anyone who tried. Simply not opposing it would be enough. IMO, it is not Microsoft's place to decide where and what people do with the hardware. Just like GM can't say where I drive the vehicle. Ford has tracks. They don't want me to drive my Ford vehicle on them? Very well. Everyone knows that if they mod something on a vehicle, they are assuming responsibility if that mod causes harm to them or others. The vehicle companies sell more vehicles with no added liability for people doing stupid stuff with them. What's not to love? It increases competition, and creates companies and jobs (and hobbies). Win-win.

This works because there is healthy competition and a variety of venues. I'm saying the same should be allowed to happen with consoles. If they didn't oppose such things, I would have no issue with Microsoft's actions.

The same could be the case for mods with consoles, just like it already is with computers (90% or which use MS software, btw). Essentially no computers are stock. All are modded in some way with other programs. Installing Firefox, or making the computer dual-boot with Linux. There is a huge gaming community online with people all using modded PC's, and they are thriving. They can be used to cheat just like mods on consoles can be, and there are legit uses, just like on consoles. They can be controlled effectively, without unreasonable bans in consoles as well as PC's. They already had what is essentially PunkBuster software on the 360's, which is necessary. This blanket ban added nothing to the table, and stifled creativity, diversity, and competition-- unnecessarilty, and unethically, IMO.

HCCAfan. Like above, there are places to go that speed. GM doesn't need to supply any roads/tracks. There are tracks all over the country with no speed limits, or just build one in your back yard. I'll bet that Microsoft would sue the pants off anyone who tried that with the 360 platform.
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info giver
there are servers for modded to play on, they aren't official and they are "black-market" so to speak but you have to modify firmware to allow it to connect, but if you already put in the chip you might as well....

oh and what competition are they stifling? just out of curiosity they've developed a platform and people are forced to work through the platform...might as well tell apple they HAVE to support all windows software and .exe's...it just doesn't make sense..

comparing electronics/vehicles is apples to oranges too if you really want to get technical if they modify a vehicle extensively and it is no longer street legal it's the same as doing it to a console they have standards for them...

i guess the point i'm trying to get across is they do not have to let modified devices connect to THEIR networks because they are MODIFIED
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F.O. SPL Deezy
Note the 360 mod is on the optical drive not the mainboard.
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HCCAfan
for those banned........
http://www.xbconnect.com/

a new haven for your consoles...
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